We have chosen, deliberately, not to respond to each individual example, or argument, put forward by sedevacantists because, like quoting individual verses of Scripture, context is required to interpret them correctly. sedevacantism.com sedevacantism.org sedeprivationism.com sedeprivationism.org thechurchofjesuschristdivinephysician.com thechurchofjesuschristdivinephysician.org 16:18). According to standard Catholic doctrine, the Catholic Church is a visible identifiable body that is literally catholic, in the sense of universal ("for all people"). I know you said in the past that they interpret things wrong, but they’re also very convincing, and so I want to come across this logically. If the conclusion to sedevacantist arguments is false, then the premises which support that conclusion must be deficient, i.e., unable to prove their conclusion. And I don’t see the sedevacantists saying the gates of … What sedevacantists object to is a Mass being offered “Una Cum” or in union with a Vatican II pope and the local bishop who do not cherish the Catholic and Apostolic Faith as do ‘all orthodox believers and professors of the Catholic and Apostolic Faith,’ … And I totally understand when you said that since I’m going through the education of the Catholic Church, and even besides going through RCIA I’ve been doing a lot of my own research on the Catholic Church, which is again why I want to join the Catholic Church, I definitely found the truth in it. You have not committed apostasy. Our Lord constituted His Church as a visible hierarchically governed body founded on the rock of Peter for whom He had prayed that his faith might not fail. It is not an essential mark of the Church that it be without sin, or even that its Popes all be holy. ... Q&A: Catholic Answers to a Catholic Crisis. Coache,[1] make it a matter of faith, and refuse to assist at Masses where the priest prays for the pope. It is incompatible with the profession of Catholicism to posit any form of the "true Church" separated from the Catholic hierarchy in communion with the Roman Pontiff. Enjoying this content? So did the Protestants. Our intelligence is compromised. ... Lefebvre as his determination to let the Church make binding pronouncements (as opposed to the non-binding hunches of Sedevacantists) is the not only Catholic, but is one that is consonant with the most profound humility as well as Catholic realism. So originally, presumably, Jesus said the liturgy for the first time in Aramaic, at the last supper. John P. M. van der Ploeg, O. P., a Doctor and Master of Sacred Theology, responds to those who give up on the Church and cluster into "remnants" waiting for the "true Church" to reemerge: If these people are correct it means that Our Lord Jesus Christ has abandoned His Church, more or less as the glory of God left the temple of Jerusalem according to the famous vision of the prophet Ezechiel (Ez. And so part of the problem with sedevacantists is they don’t recognize the degree to which development can happen. What Are We to Think of the Sedevacantist Position.pdf (Size: 187.14 KB / Downloads: 2) "So let us be confident, let us not be unprepared, let us not be outflanked, let us be wise, vigilant, fighting against those who are trying to tear the faith out of our souls and morality out of our hearts, So if you’re a schismatic that has left full communion with the Church, you’re not an apostate. So what happens with these sedevacantists is they will typically say things like “Vatican II was the point of the rupture,” and maybe even a little earlier than that, with Pope John XXIII, “He was not a valid pope for…reasons,” which are really hard to specify. One more thing: Some sedevacantists tried to leave that stuff at my Ukrainian Greek Catholic parish too. Please support our mission! Donate Sedevacantism is the claim, espoused by certain extreme traditionalist Catholics, that there is currently no valid pope because of a great apostasy by either the pope or the whole Church. The authors show how sedevacantism is FALSE. "It is the position held by a small portion of traditional Catholics who claim that the Papal Seat, the Holy See, has been vacant since around 1960. Some sedevacantists consider their position as a "likely opinion," and consent to receive the sacraments from non-sedevacantist priests, while others, called "ultra" by the Fr. What we would need to have The Great Apostasy is the Church, on a global scale, shrinking, dramatically shrinking. It implies that whoever currently holds the office does so in name only. Sedevacantists end up with an invisible Calvinist Church composed of believers spiritually “subject” to illicitly consecrated bishops of questionable validity, giving no adherence to anyone other than themselves, and (in many cases) possessed of mutual hatred for one another as displayed in their puerile pseudo-apostolic diatribes against each other. So in order to be an apostate, you have to say “I was a Christian and I’m not anymore.”. [citation needed] Conspiracies concerning Communism and Jewish Kabbalah are not uncommon either. I mean, there’s a guy in Kansas who calls himself Pope Michael, and he’s not the real pope, so that makes him an anti-pope. But the Church is still the Church. Anything else is a betrayal.”. The Church as a whole is growing, and it’s one-sixth of mankind. Grace is produced in the souls of the faithful by exterior means consisting of sacraments administered with special rites, and celebrated by ministers specifically chosen for this function. One of the things that Christ promised is that he would be with his church till the end of time. And if Vatican II had done something that fundamentally betrayed the faith, then number one, the gates of hell would have prevailed against the Church, which Jesus said wouldn’t happen, and number two, there would have been an outcry from the bishops! Originally, even in Rome, it was said in Greek; but over the course of time, Latin was added, and so were other languages. The modern Roman Catholic Church is seen as "run by anti-Catholic infiltrators" doing everything they can to wreck real Catholic faith. Sedevacantism The Vacancy of the Papal Throne since the Death of Pope Pius XII The Chair of St. Peter in Vatican City (image: shutterstock.com) On this page we present a slew of links to articles, blog posts, books, audios, and videos dealing with the subject matter of the Papacy, Sedevacantism, the false theological position known as “recognize-but-resist”,… Sedevacantists are demonstrably “catholic” but not Catholic. One among many reasons that pornography is an "occasion of sin" is its ability to draw the mind into the world of evil. Click here to learn about the Society of Saint Pius V. O kay, so that’s sedevacantism. And that’s something the Catholic Church accepts and recognizes, and it’s mentioned in the Catechism of the Catholic Church. It must therefore be an essentially visible body. And they didn’t. The Vatican II antipopes are without doubt real heretics. However, you brought up a partial solution to your problem with Francis and his posse. I like Catholic Answers. In the "Foreword" to the book, Fr. Jimmy: Well, there are anti-popes. Question: "What is sedevacantism?" That’s how the Catechism envisions it. We receive many inquiries into sedevacantist authors, websites and videos. If you’re a heretic that has denied some dogma of the faith, you’re not an apostate. What are we to think of the Sedevacantist Position? Caller: I was protestant, I then ventured into atheism, and now I am currently at RCIA accepting the Catholic faith. So a first thought I’d have is: is this the right time in your journey to be trying to process this kind of information? Our feelings encourage us to sin. Our conscience is numbed. Father Z is not a Sedevacantist in the least, unless one’s definition of Sedevacantism is anyone who criticizes or disagrees with the Pope on some issues (in which case 90% of Catholics, and great Saints like St Peter Damian and St Catherine of Siena would qualify as “Sedevacantists” … It’s a huge book (700+ pages!) Vatican to Offer Abortion-Tainted Vaccine, Progressive ‘Catholic’ Media Goes Belly-Up, Post-Election Special: Courts Ignoring Evidence, I Am With You Always: The Divine Constitution and Indefectibility of the Catholic Church. But those situations are not representative of the Church as a whole. I am not convinced by their answers here. But very quickly, certainly by Saint Paul’s time, they started saying Mass in Greek. The Catholic response is that to believe this is to believe that Our Lord's promise to be with His Church until the end of time and protect Her from conquest by the Gates of Hell was a lie. There are people in every age who apostatize. The fact that Pope John XXIII has worked his miracle proves: a) that he is in heaven, b) that he was a true Pope and c) that therefore the sedevacantist theory that there has been no Pope since Pius XII is wrong. And you do not have bishops, you don’t have the the pope and the body of bishops saying “Guess what, you know, we used to be Christian, but we’re not anymore.” Therefore, whatever criticisms you have of the pope and the bishops, they have not apostatized. Behind a facade of intense loyalty to the Magisterium and the Holy Father, sedevacantists separate themselves from the Vine and become, in practice, "protestants with sacraments." I am not convinced by their answers here. However, within this collage of valid observations are intimations, allegations and apparent logical conclusions that, because they are impossible, cannot be true. You wrote: “being a good Catholic nowadays requires one to ignore 90 percent of what comes out of Rome.” Go ahead and ignore 90 percent of what comes out of Rome and you’ll probably be more at peace. That so many good and intelligent Catholics have been seduced by sedevacantist arguments is proof that one should avoid exploring and engaging sedevacantist claims as the occasions of sin that they are. He also promised the gates of hell would not prevail against it. Tim Staples explains what Sedevacantism is and why it should be rejected. Some of the specific positions advocated by various groups of sedevacantists might strike ordinary Catholics as funny, but schism is no laughing matter. No. The Catholic Church, right now, is a very wounded Mystical Body of Christ. For example, many adhere to the belief that all Popes since Pope Pius XII are "anti-Popes," or that Pope Gregory XVII was a true but suppressed Pope, and that now we have no true Pope. So the sedevacantist teaches that John Paul II was an impostor and the same for Benedict XVI. ... Fr. As the Second Vatican Council taught, the hierarchical society and the Mystical Body form one complex reality. So in your opinion, Jimmy, you would say that there are—this is just a clarification for me personally— you would say that there definitely are not any anti-popes, and all of the bishops still have their full succession from the original Church from the beginning, correct? Now there was another component to your question which is: has the Church abandoned its traditions? And if you’re just learning Church teaching for the first time, you may not want to be exposing yourself to material that has a high risk of distorting things or presenting it in an imbalanced way. Archbishop Marcel Lefebvre. Letters to Friends and Benefactors 1975 - 1983. Letters to Popes and other Clergy. We live and move and have our being in a wounded Mystical Body of Christ. Examples of this woundedness are legion. Sure. And have there been a large number of them in certain parts of the world today? Sedevacantism is the claim, espoused by certain extreme traditionalist Catholics, that there is currently no valid pope because of a great apostasy by either the pope or the whole Church. In other words, by refusing to accept the authority of the current Pope or his recent predecessors, a Catholic who’s a sedevacantist willfully puts himself into a state of schism. In fact, I had two anti-popes on Facebook try to become my Facebook friends a while back, but I concluded that they just wanted to be Facebook friends so they could promote their anti-papacies, and I didn’t friend them. The footnote to that last sentence points to The Code of Canon Law, article 1325 in the Old Code, article 751 in the New Code. They insist frequently—and frankly—on an uncharitable reading of every development, and portray it as if it was an unacceptable development, and they have essentially fossilized a certain stage of development in the history of the Church and said “Any departure from that is an apostasy.” And that’s just a misrepresentation, both of the concept of apostasy and of the way tradition works. There are also apostates here in America. Furthermore, when we speak of the visibility of the Church, we do not simply mean that her members, her rites, and her ministry can be seen. If we cannot depend on Jesus to be faithful to His promises to the Church, then upon what or whom can we depend? I like Catholic Answers. We have gathered together several quotes from various writers on the issues of the indefectibility of the Church and the necessity that such an indefectible Church be visible. The current Bishop of Rome is an “anti-Pope,” a “false Pope.”  In externals and internal belief, sedevacantists are almost indistinguishable from Catholicism as it was experienced and practiced before the Second Vatican Council. What is most difficult when engaging sedevacantist arguments, and dangerous for the unprepared, is that, as with Protestantism, there is much that is true in sedevacantist presentations. He’s the one that the college of cardinals elected, and I have no doubt about that. Host: All right, how’s all that, Brent? The reference to the Church as a visible body ... is of crucial importance. We encourage you to read them slowly and carefully, and then pray that God will renew and encourage your faith in His Church: Michael Davies wrote a book, I Am With You Always: The Divine Constitution and Indefectibility of the Catholic Church, that is a powerful antidote to the temptation to give up on the Church. In order to be an apostate, you have to say “I am not a Christian any more.” And that is not what’s happening in terms of the claims sedevacantists are making with regard to the bishops of the Church. Sedevacantism comes from the Latin sede vacante, which means "seat vacant. So even if you want to say, “Well, I think they could have done better, or think they could have phrased this differently,” fine. Because their clergy are, typically, validly ordained bishops and priests but separated from the visible Church, they are “protestants with sacraments.”. Many of the sedevacantist critiques of the current state of the Church are valid. Apostasy is defined as—and you can read this in the Code of Canon Law, including the 1917 Code of Canon Law, if I recall correctly, it’s certainly in the 83 Code and it’s in the Catechism—apostasy is defined as the total repudiation of the Christian faith. It had already been a tradition, but now it was an infallibly defined one. This article originally appeared on the Traditionalist blog Athanasius Contra Mundum on September 3rd, 2009. But what I find problematic with a lot of these sedevacantist claims is they don’t understand what an apostasy is. Sedevacantism. What we mean is that these can be recognized to constitute the true Church of Christ; so that, in other words, we can point to a specific society and say of it: "This is Christ's Church." What they all have in common is a belief that the current Pope, and usually several predecessors, are/were "anti-Popes." note: at the time this article was written, it was Benedict XVI] as a … The Pope may have been elected and accepted by cardinals yet, due to heretical views, is not “truly” the head of the earthly church. It is also impossible that Our Lord could abandon His Church as it would frustrate the very purpose for which the Church had been founded, to be God's instrument for the salvation of souls. Sedevacantist claims and arguments require context to be refuted. Remember that Sedevacantism, the position that there has been no (known) true Pope of the Catholic Church since the death of Pius XII in 1958, and that the current Vatican establishment is not the Catholic Church, is entirely safe theologically. There is not, there never has been, and there never can be, any organized body not in communion with the Roman Pontiff of which that statement can be made. There is, without question, a crisis in the Church today. However, just as the authority of the Apostles was not compromised by the presence of Judas in their midst, the wounded Body of Christ we experience does not make it other than what it is: the Body of Christ. So we just don’t see the conditions necessary for The Great Apostasy. I don’t think they are entirely on the wrong track, but I believe there are decent rebuttals to their answers. Well, one of the things you discover when you read the Church’s documents and when you study the course of history is, although tradition has elements of continuity that are the same all the way down through Church history and have been since the first century, there are other elements of tradition that adapt and that develop with the course of time. The 1870 Dogmatic Constitution Pastor Aeternus of the First Vatican Councilreaffirmed that "it has always been necessary f… In a mind filled with the effects of pornography, sinful thoughts and actions are made easier. The arguments which conclude to sedevacantist claims are many, varied and complex. http://www.catholic.com Jimmy Akin is an internationally known author and speaker. As more and more Catholics discover that their Church has been caught contradicting itself in matters that should have qualified under its umbrellas of Infallibility and Indefectibility The Sedevacantist Delusion introduces an explanation that requires readers to reconsider the historical origins of its claims. Because it has not only the element of continuity, but it also has the element of development that occurs, and you can’t arbitrarily fossilize a certain stage in the Church’s history and say “There can be no departures from this. Answer: A “material” heretic is a Catholic erring in good faith about a dogmatic issue. If we have doubts about the legitimacy of the Holy Father, it is easier to disobey any and all Church authority, because all Church authority proceeds from the See of Peter: not only do we not need to obey the Pope, we don't need to obey priests and bishops. Because this is a…I mean, I don’t discourage people from looking at information and arguments, but there are questions of timing, and while you’re going through this education of yourself in learning about Church teaching and what the Church says, I don’t know that it’s the most prudent time to be reading material that attacks the Church in this way, because they’re going to be distorting. Such sites fill the mind with thoughts that make it easier for us to doubt the visible Church, doubt the Holy Father, and to be disobedient to the authority of the Church in all things. Library of Online Resources. I don’t see the “gates of Hell” argument making a lot of sense here. As Saint Paul says, it’s the pillar and foundation of truth in the world, Christ said the gates of hell are not going to prevail against it, and so consequently, this—and I hate to say this, because I don’t like to say things in general that are negative about people—but the ideas that are being proposed by sedevacantists are just paranoid and delusional ideas that are not in conformity with the promises of Christ. The Sedevacantists say that there has not been a true pope since Pius XII. I have the first edition of the book and plan on getting the new edition. Sedevacantism is the position, held by a minority of traditionalist Catholics, that the alleged present occupant of the Holy See is not truly pope due to the mainstream church's espousal of the heresy of modernism and that, for lack of a valid pope, the see has been … So that aspect of the tradition adapted. So the people who are making these arguments simply do not understand what an apostasy is. Since Our Lord cannot lie, sedevacantist claims must be false. But if there was some horrendous theological error that struck at the foundation of the Church, some group of the episcopate would have protested. Freemason and Communist infiltrators are often seen as the reason these Popes got elected. Jesus was no less God when He was beaten, bruised and crucified. If an author, website or video is known to be sedevacantist, you should avoid them as you would avoid pornography. Pornography has the power to enter our minds through our senses and, thereby, to poison our thoughts. To suspend one’s judgment in the interest of being open-minded and fair is to open a door to God’s enemy, who loves nothing more than to separate men from the Truth. I don’t see the “gates of Hell” argument making a lot of sense here. The Church was instituted by Our Lord to guide her members effectively toward their supernatural end by continuing His own ministry. And then Vatican II said all kinds of horrible things, in their mind, that contradicted the historic faith. Part 1 (of 4) Our priest, at that time, had circulated a talk given by a traditionalist priest which stated that we, as Catholics, do not have the right to judge the pope. Download as: 21. Catholic Resistance. They can’t, because Our Lord is not a liar. We cannot encourage anyone more strongly to give up speculation about "true Popes" and "anti-Popes" and imprudent dependence on "private revelations" that should never be understood or interpreted apart from the authority and Magisterium of the Church. It developed. So it’s hard to say “we’re in a great apostasy” or “THE Great Apostasy” when the Church is bigger than ever. Jimmy Akin explains why the reasons given by sedevacantists for their position are faulty and contrary to the promises of Christ. Thus the Sedevacantist must maintain that the Church preserves the Four Marks despite lacking a Successor to Peter, while the orthodox Catholic must prove that such a scenario would mean the Marks had been lost. This is seen as incompatible with the sedevacantist claim that the true nature of the Catholic Church has been hidden from the world for half a century. It is essential, therefore, to begin discussions with sedevacantists with the clear conviction that their conclusions are false. That is all we set out to demonstrate. The sedevacantist heresy is the claim that the See of Peter is vacant and that we have no true and visible head of the Church. Catholic ministers may licitly administer the sacraments of penance, Eucharist and anointing of the sick to members of the oriental churches which do not have full communion with the Catholic Church, if they ask on their own for the sacraments and are properly disposed. While sedevacantism does not per se encompass conspiracy theories, sedevacantists seem prone to following them. This is really wrong here!” And that didn’t happen. You are not signed in as a Premium user; Premium users get 10% discount in the store! It’s that dangerous. The difference is that we are in communion with the visible Church and they are not. We’re not gonna be a sixth of mankind and be bigger than we’ve ever been in history. In terms of Pope Francis, he’s the pope. And that tells us that Christ is maintaining his Church in the truth fundamentally, just like he said he would. The sedevacantist heresy is the claim that the See of Peter is vacant and that we have no true and visible head of the Church. There is no single thread that ties them all together except their conclusion that what most Catholics today believe to be the authentic Catholic Church is really a counterfeit. If we have doubts about the authority of the Holy Father, it is easier to disobey him. The term “great apostasy” is really a theological term that’s based on some passages that indicate there will be a great falling-away from the faith towards the end of the world. but is a treasure trove of what Catholics need to arm themselves against sedevacantism. Anytime someone is attacking somebody else, you have a big risk that they’re distorting things. Sedevacantism. Yes, they reject that Church as false. Catholics without Compromise. It must be visible by the members that compose it, by the authority which directs those members, and by the bonds which unite them with the divinely instituted authority. Our Lord did not found a sect but the Catholic, that is, the universal Church. And in the 300s, the divinity of Christ was in was infallibly defined, and so even though that had been part of the tradition up to now, now it was an infallibly defined tradition. In his encyclical Satis cognitum, 1896, Pope Leo XIII noted the importance of the sacraments among the visible bonds uniting the members of the Mystical Body. Answers to the Most Common Objections Against Sedevacantism. And soon, within a couple of centuries, mass was being said in Latin. So there just would have been, at the Council, some kind of massive protest if it did anything fundamentally wrong. You look in Europe, there are a bunch of apostates in Europe. There have been many Popes whose personal lives would give reason to question whether they even believed the Catholic Faith. 2. Most Holy Family Monastery, and other sedevacantist sites, would probably judge Church Militant productions to be "spiritual pornography" for the same reasons we use to warn others about them. As you would avoid pornography learn about the authority of the Holy Father, it is not a.! We to think of the Catholic Church accepts and recognizes, and I ’ m not anymore. ” apostate... 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